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Re: Proviron (mesterolone)

Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:22 pm
by naiverat
nasibi wrote:
Northern_Star wrote: That's an interesting but not a surprising post. We see the same with PFS. It's like we become resistant or insensitive to androgens. That, of course, ties in with the leading theory on the root cause of PFS.

At Propeciahelp it has long been suspected that SSRIs just like Finasteride lead to a reduction of androgens at the cellular level, e.g. due to induction of 3α-HSD, and that PSSD and PFS are in fact one and the same condition that was brought upon by a reduction in androgens. The fact that some here experience the same resistance/insensitivity to androgens gives us an additional hint that this might be true.

It would be interesting to hear more experiences.


With me it is not just the androgens. I have become resistant to pretty much all drugs like opioids, benzos, amphetamines etc.



You feel absolutely nothing from benzos and opioids, or just lack of euphoria/typical effects?

If you mixed a shit-load of booze with a bunch of benzos, you wouldn't get sloppy or blackout?

Re: Proviron (mesterolone)

Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:51 pm
by Dubya_B
magnilo wrote: I also take low dose Accutane which impairs 5ar a bit,

Dear god, what are you trying to do to yourself? Are you not aware of Accutane causing essentially the same symptoms as PSSD?
It is what put me in my never-ending hell. I began to lose my libido within 2 weeks of starting the drug and experienced a crash, developing severe ED and total loss of emotion (plus a slew of other symptoms) about 6 weeks after my last dose.

Please taper off. There are people who developed this syndrome from doses as low as 10mg/day or from only a few days of being on the drug.

Just FYI, there are also post-Accutane patients who have noticed zero effect from taking DHT analogues. It could be very well having an influence on your response to DHT too.

Re: Proviron (mesterolone)

Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:25 am
by nasibi
naiverat wrote: You feel absolutely nothing from benzos and opioids, or just lack of euphoria/typical effects?

If you mixed a shit-load of booze with a bunch of benzos, you wouldn't get sloppy or blackout?


I feel nothing at all except for at really high doses opioids notice a little bit slower breathing. Benzos and alchohol no effects regardless of dose. Propofol bolus injection above 60 mg makes me unconcious for about 2-3 minutes.

Re: Proviron (mesterolone)

Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:10 am
by magnilo
Dubya_B wrote:
magnilo wrote: I also take low dose Accutane which impairs 5ar a bit,

Dear god, what are you trying to do to yourself? Are you not aware of Accutane causing essentially the same symptoms as PSSD?
It is what put me in my never-ending hell. I began to lose my libido within 2 weeks of starting the drug and experienced a crash, developing severe ED and total loss of emotion (plus a slew of other symptoms) about 6 weeks after my last dose.

Please taper off. There are people who developed this syndrome from doses as low as 10mg/day or from only a few days of being on the drug.

Just FYI, there are also post-Accutane patients who have noticed zero effect from taking DHT analogues. It could be very well having an influence on your response to DHT too.


hi dubya and thanks for your concern, i genuinely appreciate it.
i am aware of the dangers of isotretinoin, and i know im playing with fire.
as a teen i took it at 30mg a day for a while and that made me really tired and apathetic, but i ve never had any sexual issues. those started only after fluoxetine @ 23yo.
sadly my acne hasnt resolved yet (and im 33). isotretinoin is the only thing that works for me, and it does so through various mechanisms. im trying to counter the dht one.
i take 20mg a week, which makes 3mg a day. i try to quit it for as many months as possible over winter, but acne comes back and i dont notice an improvement, or at least its not consistent

Re: Proviron (mesterolone)

Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
by quagmire
Northern_Star wrote:
nasibi wrote:I tried Proviron before getting pssd and back then just one 25 mg tablet made me so horny that my penis start hurting out of too much horniness. But now with pssd it is like eating candies. I can take 5-6 tablets at a time and it has no effect on me what so ever.


That's an interesting but not a surprising post. We see the same with PFS. It's like we become resistant or insensitive to androgens. That, of course, ties in with the leading theory on the root cause of PFS.

At Propeciahelp it has long been suspected that SSRIs just like Finasteride lead to a reduction of androgens at the cellular level, e.g. due to induction of 3α-HSD, and that PSSD and PFS are in fact one and the same condition that was brought upon by a reduction in androgens. The fact that some here experience the same resistance/insensitivity to androgens gives us an additional hint that this might be true.

It would be interesting to hear more experiences.


I have mentioned this theory about change in 3α-HSD in a post before. SSRi's, antipshycotics, SNRI's and finasteride do all mess with 3α-HSD and other neurosteroids, and all of them cause symptoms like PSSD.
Look in the link below:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2789

Re: Proviron (mesterolone)

Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:13 am
by Rb26dett
nasibi wrote:
naiverat wrote: You feel absolutely nothing from benzos and opioids, or just lack of euphoria/typical effects?

If you mixed a shit-load of booze with a bunch of benzos, you wouldn't get sloppy or blackout?


I feel nothing at all except for at really high doses opioids notice a little bit slower breathing. Benzos and alchohol no effects regardless of dose. Propofol bolus injection above 60 mg makes me unconcious for about 2-3 minutes.


I too can no longer get drunk and the benzodiazepines do not make me any effect. When I did a colonoscopy, the anesthesiologist didn't understand why I didn't fall asleep after a double dose of Mdazolam. I was perfectly lucid. I have had this side effect since before I took the PSSD. So I don't think it's related.

Re: Proviron (mesterolone)

Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:00 am
by Northern_Star
Jaxx wrote:I still wonder if PFS and PSSD are not different (even though they have major similarities), looking at what has cured people in the past. I must admit i dont know the PFS community in great detail, but a large amount of PFS cures seem to be about progesterone or other hormonal protocols.
For PSSD these cures are almost always with drug or supplement with serotonin or dopamine. I havent seen any PSSD cures (or even major relief) with the hormonal route.

But i am very curious to see if the survey will tell us more. What is blurring the discussion a bit is that not everyone here actually has this issue from an SSRI, but from other type of medication, supplements or even hormones.


These "cures" can rarely be reproduced by any meaningful number of people. I don't think they can tell us much. They can often be attributed to natural recoveries (many people recover/improve naturally within the first weeks/months irregardless of any "protocols), placebo effect, very mild symptoms or they are simply fake.

If there were reliable treatments for those with significant symptoms, I think we would know.

With regard to the last point, we are specifically asking for the substance. We know that many substances, including natural supplements, can cause these symptoms. This is exactly the point we are trying to make: There is no Post-Finasteride, Post-SSRI or Post-Accutane syndrome. This is a syndrome that can be caused by all substances that have anti-androgenic properties. We even have people who crashed their androgen levels through extreme diet forms that have this syndrome. Everything that results in a (sharp) decrease in intra-cellular androgen levels can cause persistent symptoms in predisposed men and women.

Going one step further: We even have people who crashed after using aromatase inhibitors and who have a similar syndrome presumably associated with changes at the level of the estrogen receptors.

This topic is much broader than most realise. It's not only about Finasteride or ADs, it's about endocrine disruption as a whole.

Re: Proviron (mesterolone)

Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:23 am
by scripy3
Northern_Star wrote:
Jaxx wrote:I still wonder if PFS and PSSD are not different (even though they have major similarities), looking at what has cured people in the past. I must admit i dont know the PFS community in great detail, but a large amount of PFS cures seem to be about progesterone or other hormonal protocols.
For PSSD these cures are almost always with drug or supplement with serotonin or dopamine. I havent seen any PSSD cures (or even major relief) with the hormonal route.

But i am very curious to see if the survey will tell us more. What is blurring the discussion a bit is that not everyone here actually has this issue from an SSRI, but from other type of medication, supplements or even hormones.


These "cures" can rarely be reproduced by any meaningful number of people. I don't think they can tell us much. They can often be attributed to natural recoveries (many people recover/improve naturally within the first weeks/months irregardless of any "protocols), placebo effect, very mild symptoms or they are simply fake.

If there were reliable treatments for those with significant symptoms, I think we would know.

With regard to the last point, we are specifically asking for the substance. We know that many substances, including natural supplements, can cause these symptoms. This is exactly the point we are trying to make: There is no Post-Finasteride, Post-SSRI or Post-Accutane syndrome. This is a syndrome that can be caused by all substances that have anti-androgenic properties. We even have people who crashed their androgen levels through extreme diet forms that have this syndrome. Everything that results in a (sharp) decrease in intra-cellular androgen levels can cause persistent symptoms in predisposed men and women.

Going one step further: We even have people who crashed after using aromatase inhibitors and who have a similar syndrome presumably associated with changes at the level of the estrogen receptors.

This topic is much broader than most realise. It's not only about Finasteride or ADs, it's about endocrine disruption as a whole.


The people crashed through other stuff. They also been hyper sexual and emotional and chronic stressed before? Most PSSD people report tthis.

Re: Proviron (mesterolone)

Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:10 pm
by magnilo
Northern_Star wrote: [...] There is no Post-Finasteride, Post-SSRI or Post-Accutane syndrome. This is a syndrome that can be caused by all substances that have anti-androgenic properties. We even have people who crashed their androgen levels through extreme diet forms that have this syndrome. Everything that results in a (sharp) decrease in intra-cellular androgen levels can cause persistent symptoms in predisposed men and women.
[...]

This topic is much broader than most realise. It's not only about Finasteride or ADs, it's about endocrine disruption as a whole.


i agree 100%

Re: Proviron (mesterolone)

Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:20 pm
by Jaxx
Northern_Star wrote:
Jaxx wrote:I still wonder if PFS and PSSD are not different (even though they have major similarities), looking at what has cured people in the past. I must admit i dont know the PFS community in great detail, but a large amount of PFS cures seem to be about progesterone or other hormonal protocols.
For PSSD these cures are almost always with drug or supplement with serotonin or dopamine. I havent seen any PSSD cures (or even major relief) with the hormonal route.

But i am very curious to see if the survey will tell us more. What is blurring the discussion a bit is that not everyone here actually has this issue from an SSRI, but from other type of medication, supplements or even hormones.


These "cures" can rarely be reproduced by any meaningful number of people. I don't think they can tell us much. They can often be attributed to natural recoveries (many people recover/improve naturally within the first weeks/months irregardless of any "protocols), placebo effect, very mild symptoms or they are simply fake.

If there were reliable treatments for those with significant symptoms, I think we would know.

With regard to the last point, we are specifically asking for the substance. We know that many substances, including natural supplements, can cause these symptoms. This is exactly the point we are trying to make: There is no Post-Finasteride, Post-SSRI or Post-Accutane syndrome. This is a syndrome that can be caused by all substances that have anti-androgenic properties. We even have people who crashed their androgen levels through extreme diet forms that have this syndrome. Everything that results in a (sharp) decrease in intra-cellular androgen levels can cause persistent symptoms in predisposed men and women.

Going one step further: We even have people who crashed after using aromatase inhibitors and who have a similar syndrome presumably associated with changes at the level of the estrogen receptors.

This topic is much broader than most realise. It's not only about Finasteride or ADs, it's about endocrine disruption as a whole.


It is possible, and i fully support the effort to tackle the broader issue in a scientific way.
And you have a point that cures are rare, and likely do not show the full picture. But also what people are taking to find relief i see differences. Perhaps this is all a "tunnel" that people are in, meaning that many people with pfs focus on hormones mainly, while pssd cases focus on serotonin/dopaminergics, could be. I really hope the survey can be a first step in determining this.